王朝闻简平穆益林2001年3月3日上午于王朝闻寓所

　　(录音记录由穆益林整理，简平老师审改)

　　(展开穆益林帛画原作大家逐张观看)

　　王朝闻：这个调子呐，和日本人的那个不一样，它那个太过优美了，缺乏一种壮美的东西。细看你里面有种荷花出污泥而不染的味道，很有意思呐，很不错的。你还有那个表现;“一种神秘感，也是很不错的。

　　穆益林：我这是利用了丝绸的特点。

　　王朝闻：这个效果很有个性。

　　穆益林：帛画是我们中国优秀的传统。我小时候在上海美专念书的时候，老师们教我在绢上画时，背面要画颜色。

　　王朝闻：日本裱画背后有时也用点金箔贴上去。

　　穆益林：现在很多年青人画青绿山水，他们已经不懂反面要做文章了。以前画人物，也常常是正面身上要画什么颜色了，反面在它的形的内部也衬上一块颜色。现在我呐，也是正面反面画，反面的形和正面的形我有时候不相同，就产生了一种交叠，一交叠以后就产生了一种帛的透叠的特点，我很高兴。

　　王朝闻：这样画不单薄、不浮浅、不表面，往这方面发展啊是很新的。你画别的题材也可以用这种方法。当然，色调你不必局限，画红的也行，画蓝的也行。，画家对生活的反应，他不是反映一时一事，他可以综合，也可以分析，在这个前提之下有很大的自由和活动的天地。这样画可以。

　　(看《元宵印象No.5神灯》)

　　王朝闻：这是元宵的画，是写意印象图呐，很热闹。

　　穆益林：对，热闹。你到侧面看，你看，侧面看的颜色就两样了。我们的中国丝绸，那么好的东西，我真希望有更多人一起来研究。我觉得帛上以前的重彩画，是我们中国真正的好的重彩画。王朝闻：画里的光斑，我这里看全都像花一样。这些都是流动的光。流动的光也可以用各种各样的画法。

　　(看《荷塘印象No.1》)

　　王朝闻：秋天里的荷塘。你这张画有创造性。齐白石画的残荷，他的水面是秋天颜色。你在颜色方面不去强调秋的特点，而是强调了残荷荷梗的造型，有你的特点。追求特点是一个办法。行。

　　穆益林：我们从侧面看.这白荷花的白颜色显得很清楚。

　　王朝闻：这样看过去颜色很厚，正面看也很丰富。

　　穆益林：翻上来这样看，颜色又两样了。

　　王朝闻：哎—，这样看颜色又不一样了。

　　简 平：又不一样了。

　　穆益林：这样、这样、这样、这样(变换不同的角度看)，都两样。我们中国的帛真是非常好的东西呀，真希望全国能够有很多人一起来聊。王朝闻：你这张画要画多少时间哪?

　　穆益林：要画二十几天。

　　王朝闻：这个颜色是矿物质的吧。

　　穆益林：是矿物质的颜色，画在帛的反面永远不褪色的。

　　王朝闻：颜色都在后面?

　　穆益林：很多颜色在后面。您看。这里正面是空白的，你侧看不是一块白颜色吗?正看就有颜色了，这里面的颜色很多，都是反面透过来的。

　　简 平：映过来的。

　　穆益林：哎，映过来的。反面的颜色用墨、用矿物质的颜色，正面呐，我是探索了很多很多年，只用中国画颜色，没有这样好的效果，我就用印丝绸的染料和中国画的颜料结合在一起，这样我经过处理以后，这个颜色永远不会褪，就像人们穿的衣服，雨淋呀，太阳晒呀，都不会褪色一样，这样比较好，长期保存没有问题。

　　王朝闻：你用胶吗?

　　穆益林：反过来也是要用胶。

　　王朝闻：不能用多了，用多了它就要脆了。

　　穆益林：对，很薄，您手摸摸看，我用得很簿的。

　　王朝闻：是的。你要用二十多天才能画得出啊。

　　简 平：画这大的，小的就用不着。

　　穆益林：小的就快一点了。

　　(看《天涯客No.4寻得桃源》)

　　王朝闻：哎，你这很有意思。看原作，比那印刷品更好了，感觉到那个活泼的味道啊。不但是造形上白鹤在活动，而且技艺的用墨、用色、构图都在活动。这些办法比较自然，但是有创造性，这个路子走下去呀，有搞头。这画的下头，白鹤的脚是很长的，尽量还要让它长一点。帛是不是限制了你呀?

　　穆益林：不限制。门幅也不限制。

　　王朝闻：那还可以长点。鹤的脚淹在水里头，还要感觉得到它的脚的位置在哪里。水鸟、鹭鸶、白鹤，脚太重要了。白鹤的舞蹈和别的舞蹈不一样。你要了解白鹤的舞蹈，要比较汉代的那个叫——

　　简 平：画像石。

　　王朝闻：哦，是画像石。画像石表现舞蹈的手法可作参考。它是人的舞蹈，夸张得很哪!人的身体没有那么长，它敢于那么长。楚的、汉的漆画画的人都是非常夸张的，但你能接受得了。不是说西方敢搞抽象画，我们中国传统绘画也敢搞这东西，搞的话要有感而发，不是随便乱来的，我们为了表现白鹤呐，可以参考人，因为道理是一个。尽可能是中国味道，但中国味道又是发展的。

　　穆益林：王老师今天很累了。我会按照你说的去努力地做。前一阶段我的精力是放在形式的探索上，怎么走处自己的路，跟人家要拉开距离。另外我有一种迫切性，希望把帛上的画让更多的人了解，让大家都来搞帛画。让她与纸本绘画在国际上使人知道都是中国的瑰宝。现在我们很多人对帛上的绘画已经了解得不多了，仅仅知道仿古的绢本画，或者是作为纸本绘画的一种附属画法，而不是把它作为专门的绘画门类来研究。

　　王朝闻：(点头，继续看画)这张画是比较追求一种淡雅的味道。好像稍微有一层薄薄的薄雾样子，这可以。

　　穆益林：侧面看它的颜色，很厚的。

　　王朝闻：不一样。

　　简 平：我很喜欢你的帛画。你有空给画一张，好吗?

　　穆益林：行。我下次带来给您。

　　王朝闻：你太花工夫了。

　　简 平：画张小的就行啦。

　　穆益林：放在新房子里面，我会把镜框给配好。我的帛画配这种镜框(指挂在墙上的老式红木镜框)不行，要白的。

　　王朝闻：好看呐。

　　你坐下，我跟你说——

　　齐白石有张画我很喜欢。但是人家说它说不定是假的。不管它是假的不假的，它曾被荣宝斋的印刷过。当时齐白石还在，我看它不会是假的。但是，齐白石是人家帮他画他也同意，就很难说了。聊上签名是齐璜，画的什么呢?画一个荷花莲蓬。这张画画面很小，境界很大，小中见大。他这张画呐，跟《蛙声十里出山泉》一样，他厉害在小中见大。他的不倒翁、发财图等等作品，画的人物也好，画的小鸡“他日相呼”，或者是画放牛的，牛不走，小牧童要走，都有一种境界大、画面小。

　　王国维讲词： “有我之境”与“无我之境”是有区别的。我看没有“无我”的，都是“有我”的，不过这个“我”呢，写得直接还是间接?齐白石的“我”和八大山人的“我”都恰到好处，李清照的“我”就是过头一点，凄凄戚戚惨惨，太可怜了。李后主的“我”呐，就不太可怜了，而且觉得他的词很天真。王国维称李后主是生活在妇女当中，不是一个好皇帝，但他是一种赤子之心，坦率、自然。你很注意我的意见呐，我作为朋友，希望你大胆创造。但是要情归于真，归到自然。

　　王国维说：以自然之舌言情，用自然的最高的舌头言情。言情是很重要的。情怎么言法呢?言得是很自然。那个自然是两种含义，一种是自然界，一种是自然的态度，就是不装腔作势。就像我跟你说过的木偶戏，跟你画画不是两回事吗?但可以有共同性，那个小孩的脑袋有什么特征?得得得地敲，(笑)我看得高兴。(笑。指着画)所以我说，你画淡雅浓厚都可以，大有可为，这里面。

　　你要出人头地呐，这是很重要的。不自己重复自己，更不能重复别人，重复别人是没有出息的。没有前途的。这里要防止一个东西，在上海的环境里头啊，容易受到那种时髦的引诱，要应有提防，要有种“看身术”，不要受它的影响!那些荒谬的说法，没意思。什么“接轨”?是放弃了自己，没有自尊心哪!我们要以我们自己的堂堂正正地进人世界，不是以它的附庸进入世界。进人世界，你要我、不要我，我来不来找你?不一定!又不是诺贝尔奖金，你诺贝尔奖金如果是有另外一种政治意义的，我就不上你这儿来了(笑)。尊重自己与发展自己统一起来。

　　进入市场的事，你是什么态度呢?

　　穆益林：我没有进入市场。

　　王朝闻：要有人买，你的画还是可以卖哟。你应该进入市场，你的画可以受人欢迎。

　　穆益林：好的，我想一想怎么做。打扰王老师时间太长了，影响二老的休息，以后来北京再来看你们。我把画送到老师新的府上。 (起身告别)

　　王朝闻： (起身送至门口)你的帛画大有前途，祝你进一步成功，搞出好作品。

　　穆益林：谢谢老师，我一定努力。

　　简 平：好好画。那张画不要大，小一点。

　　穆益林：好的。

　　王朝闻：要你费心了。

　　穆益林：应该的。再见了，老师。

　　

　　The discussion after viewed the silk painting of Mu Yilin

　　Wang Zhaowen. Jian Ping, Mu Yilin At Wang Zhaowen's apartment Morning 2001.03.03

　　( The conversation was recorded by Mu and reformed by Jian)

　　(Viewing the original silk painting of Mu)

　　(Vewing The impression of lotus pond N0.18)

　　Wang: The silk is different from the Japanese silk that is too soft to express the quality of magnificent. I can feel the pure of the lotus by carefully viewing your works. At the same time, there is a sense of mystery full in your works. It is estimable.

　　Mu: I use the characteristic of the silk

　　Wang: Yes. The result is unique.

　　Mu: Silk painting is a great branch of the Chinese traditional art. When I was young, my teacher taught me drew on the back of the silk.

　　Wang: In Japan, gilding is a common method in mounting a picture.

　　Mu: Most of the young painters do not know that back painting is necessary for color ink painting. In the past, to color the cloth of people on the front page, in figure painting, the same area on the back should be colored with the same color by subsidiary. Now, I draw both side of the silk. The difference is the shapes on the back might be different from that in the front. It results in a fantastic effect which is as a result of the unique quality of the silk. I am glade to see that.

　　Wang: It is a fresh way to develop. It is deep going and not shallow. This method can be used on the other theme. Actually, you should not be restricted in toning; both red and blue are great. The inspiration of life is not only a moment, but the conclusion and analysis of life. By contrast, it is more place and directions to create.

　　(Viewing The impression of Lantern Festival No.5 Magic Lamp)

　　Wang: This one is about Lantern Festival. It is abstract and lively.

　　Mu: Yep, Lively. You can view it from one side, the color will change. Chinese silk, such a good thing, I wish more and more people will be interested in it. In my opinion, the greatest color paintings are these ancient silk paintings.

　　Wang: The light projections and shadows like flowers. These moving lights can be expressed through various ways.

　　(Viewing The impression of lotus pond No.1)

　　Wang: The pond in the autumn. You focus on the shape of the flower not the feeling of the autumn. it is great and it is your characteristic.

　　Mu: We can view from the side, the white color of the lotus is clear.

　　Wang: From this angle, the colors are massive; viewing in front, the colors are various.

　　Mu: Turn around, the color changes again.

　　Wang: Definitely!

　　Jian: Yes, changes

　　Mu: Viewing angle changes, the color changes. The silk is such a good thing. It is great that more people like silk painting.

　　Wang: How long did drawing this picture take you?

　　Mu: About 20 days.

　　Wang: Is this color mineral?

　　Mu: Yes, it would not fade if it drawn at the back side of the silk.

　　Wang: All the colors are drawn at the back side?

　　Mu: No. some of them are drawn on the back. Look here, it is empty by side viewing, but it is colorful viewing in front.

　　Jian: Permeated!

　　Mu: Yes, permeating. I draw by mineral pigments and ink on the back. I found, after research by years, the best choice of the colors in front is the silk dye and Chinese painting pigments.

　　Wang: Do you use glue

　　Mu: Yes, just use on the back.

　　Wang: Do not use too much. if not. the silk will become fragile.

　　Mu: I used little. It is thin. You can touch and feel it.

　　Wang: Yes, I feel it. It took you 20 days to finish a painting.

　　Jian: Drawing a picture as big as this one will take about 20 days, the small one will take less time.

　　Mu: Yes, small size picture takes less time.

　　(Viewing The crane No.4 Found the Never land)

　　Wang: It is interesting. Viewing the original picture is much better then viewing the printed one. All the stuff on the picture gives me an impression of moving, not the crane shape, but the material. Your painting method is natural, innovative and promising. I am wondering does the material silk restrict you?

　　Mu: No, both the material and the size not restrict me.

　　Wang: The crane legs are the most important part of crane painting. If you make them longer, it will be much better.

　　About the dance of crane, you can refer to a thing from Han Dynasty. That called_

　　Jian: Stone reliefs.

　　Wang: Yes, stone reliefs. The painting method of figure painting can be a good reference to crane painting. The arms and leg of people were drawn much longer then the normal one. And the dances of people are artistic exaggeration.

　　Mu: Mr. Wang might be tired. I will try my best to develop the silk painting follow your advice. In addition, I hope the silk painting will be accepted by the public and make the public know the grace of the silk painting through my achievements.

　　Wang: I like this one, the feeling of light fog is great.

　　Mu: Actually, the pigments are massive. You can see it by the side.

　　Wang: Yep, it is different. Jian: I love your works. Would you please draw one picture for me when you free?

　　Mu: Of course, I will bring it to you next time.

　　Wang: You are so hard-working.

　　Jian: A small one is ok.

　　Mu: Yes, putting in a new house is great. I will bring a matched frame. It is discordant that putting the old-fashioned mahogany frame together with my silk painting. A white frame is much better.

　　Wang: Great!

　　I like a picture which describes the lotuses and lotus seeds. It is created by Qi Baishi, through it might be a fake. However, no matter Qi Baishi is the real painter or not, the artistic value of this picture is real. It was printed by Rongbaozhai which is one of the most famous auction shops in China. The size of that picture is small. but the artistic conception is huge. Like the well-known picture hearing the frog voice far from the spring, the objects described in the picture is simple, but viewer can feel more when they saw the picture.

　　Wang Guowei (a famous writer) said that there is difference between the artistic conception of subjective and objective. However, in my opinion, there is no artistic conception of objective, all the artistic conception is created from the concept of subjective. The difference is the extent. For instance, the last emperor of Nantang dynasty Lee Houzhu, even he is not a good emperor, he is a great poet. His poems make people feel the original emotions. You respect me and my advices, but describing your original emotions is more important.

　　Describing emotions is hard but important. Describing naturally is more important. The key to create great works is expressing the original emotions naturally.

　　If you want to succeed, you cannot repeat yourself and the others. You should innovate. However, it is no doubt that there are tempts, like modern fashion etc.. all around you, especially in Shanghai. You should know how to protect yourself and your art., avoiding the bad voices affect your justice. Do not believe the theory that combining the popularity and art. That is ridiculous. The essence is giving up your self-esteem. Even the world changes every

　　day, do not change your original intention.

　　What is your opinion about enter the market?

　　Mu: I did not enter the market.

　　Wang: You should get in it. Your works will be popular.

　　Mu: Ok! I will think about it. It is time to say good bye. I am sorry to take you so much time. I will bring the picture to your new apartment next time.

　　Wang: Your silk painting is great and promising. Hope you will succeed and show us more great works.

　　Mu: Thank you so much. I will try my best.

　　Jian: Working hard.

　　Mu: Of course I will.

　　Wang: Thank you.

　　Mu: My pleasure. See you.